Talk:Buddy Matthews
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 | On 11 June 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Buddy Murphy to Buddy Matthews. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Buddy Murphy Weight
edithttps://www.wwe.com/videos/buddy-murphy-has-his-final-weigh-in-before-his-cruiserweight-debut-wwecom-exclusive-feb-20 200.9 lbs as heard in the final weigh in.
Training
editOkay, it's time we nutted this out for a consensus. There is an insistence that Matt Adams started his training at Professional Championship Wrestling's Academy in Melbourne. This is based on the following sentence in the source;
- "WWE Diva Emma (Tenille Dashwood), WWE Superstar Buddy Murphy (Matt Silva) and AAA's 'Australian Suicide' (Ryan Rollins) first began their wrestling careers at the PCW Academy"
Here's the problem. First off they only use one real name in brackets (Tenille) and there is a reason for this. She's the only one did start there. PCW doesn't know the real names of the other two (that has been sourced here for Matt) and that is a very telling factor in the difference between kayfabe and real life. This is something that PCW has done since they started presenting shows in 1999, and they have got into trouble over it with no less than two breakaway promotions over the years - one in 2004 and the other in 2007 (PWA Victoria and Maximum-Energy Pro Wrestling).
As an addition, the first paragraph blatantly overstates the term "finest" - heck they claimed one there that didn't even start in Australia as well!
The reality is that the PCW website is not reliable on this BLP issue. An independent source is needed to confirm that he started his training with the PCW training school. It's not about my own knowledge, which I have claimed that he definitely trained elsewhere. That's not the issue here. The issue is the reliability of the PCW website. It fails the test and should not be used for BLP claims. The only certainty we have is that Matt trained and still trains at the WWE Performance Centre. All of the developmental wrestlers train there without exception, and we all know that don't we? Curse of Fenric (talk) 09:37, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- All you have provided her is original research and speculation. The sourced claim should go back until you can provide a reliable source to disprove it. GaryColemanFan (talk) 13:40, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- No. It is not up to me to prove a negative. You have to prove that the source is reliable, and I have shown enough evidence (OR is irrelevant at this point) to question it's reliability. The onus is on you to prove that it is reliable. It's classification is controversial at present and under WP:BLP controversial claims are not allowed without an independent source. Your conduct is not conducive to obtaining a consensus on this. Curse of Fenric (talk) 21:43, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- OR is never irrelevant. The websites of promotions have always been considered reliable sources. Your insistence on reverting to your preferred version, rather than the one that is supported by policy, is going to get you blocked if you continue. GaryColemanFan (talk) 04:16, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- This is not about my preferred version. This is about consistency with WP:BLP. If anyone is risking being blocked it's you per WP:CIVIL. Curse of Fenric (talk) 05:06, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Stop adding WP:OR (and WP:OWN) for an unreferenced edit over a referenced one.86.168.47.35 (talk) 16:54, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Please read WP:BLP about the requirements of contentious sourcing, and I think you should also review WP:CIVIL. Your source's reliability has been questioned and the onus is on you per WP:BLP to prove it is reliable. Curse of Fenric (talk) 21:57, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Stop adding WP:OR (and WP:OWN) for an unreferenced edit over a referenced one.86.168.47.35 (talk) 16:54, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- This is not about my preferred version. This is about consistency with WP:BLP. If anyone is risking being blocked it's you per WP:CIVIL. Curse of Fenric (talk) 05:06, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- OR is never irrelevant. The websites of promotions have always been considered reliable sources. Your insistence on reverting to your preferred version, rather than the one that is supported by policy, is going to get you blocked if you continue. GaryColemanFan (talk) 04:16, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- No. It is not up to me to prove a negative. You have to prove that the source is reliable, and I have shown enough evidence (OR is irrelevant at this point) to question it's reliability. The onus is on you to prove that it is reliable. It's classification is controversial at present and under WP:BLP controversial claims are not allowed without an independent source. Your conduct is not conducive to obtaining a consensus on this. Curse of Fenric (talk) 21:43, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
As Curse of Fenric is trying to hide the disproving of his "claim" by deleting posts from his talk page:
- Additional - here's why it's controversial. The same claim by a different promotion Curse of Fenric (talk) 13:10, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- 1. Then why aren't you adding the WWE Performance Centre to all the other NXT wresters? 2. The link says nothing of the sort. The PCW says the 3 started their training there, the link above says they all "trained extensively" with Carlo Cannon, but nowhere does it say he (Cannon) was with MCW at that time. 86.168.47.35 (talk) 17:55, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
194.28.124.52 (talk) 02:39, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- I removed your comment from my talk page because you were being rude. You are also demonstrating that you don't understand the point being made. You didn't disprove anything - in fact you proved you are being disruptive. Darkwind did the right thing slapping a block on the page. The point is that the MCW site is just as controversial as the PCW site based on this. To explain this, both sites nominated the same three wrestlers and in the same fashion - as in using Emma's real name but not Buddy's or Ryan's. Also, there is no proof that Carlo was in any way involved in training with them - heck it's on the record that Emma spent a lot of her early years with a shoulder problem. She'd already trained with Lance Storm before she even met Carlo IIRC! Here's the point that you missed - promotion websites playing kayfabe to attract interest. That's why I compared MCW and PCW. That's where they are making the same claim. Curse of Fenric (talk) 09:27, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Of course you think that Darkwing did the right thing, as you managed to get your WP:Own and WP:OR version in over a sourced edit before it got locked. And again, your point is completely invalid, as it doesn't say what you're claiming it does.86.168.47.35 (talk) 15:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- You just proved with that comment that you are disruptive. Curse of Fenric (talk) 23:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Of course you think that Darkwing did the right thing, as you managed to get your WP:Own and WP:OR version in over a sourced edit before it got locked. And again, your point is completely invalid, as it doesn't say what you're claiming it does.86.168.47.35 (talk) 15:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- I removed your comment from my talk page because you were being rude. You are also demonstrating that you don't understand the point being made. You didn't disprove anything - in fact you proved you are being disruptive. Darkwind did the right thing slapping a block on the page. The point is that the MCW site is just as controversial as the PCW site based on this. To explain this, both sites nominated the same three wrestlers and in the same fashion - as in using Emma's real name but not Buddy's or Ryan's. Also, there is no proof that Carlo was in any way involved in training with them - heck it's on the record that Emma spent a lot of her early years with a shoulder problem. She'd already trained with Lance Storm before she even met Carlo IIRC! Here's the point that you missed - promotion websites playing kayfabe to attract interest. That's why I compared MCW and PCW. That's where they are making the same claim. Curse of Fenric (talk) 09:27, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Okay, I have now - per Darkwind's recommendation of the edit warring noticeboard - listed this on the BLP Noticeboard here. All discussion should now take place there, and not here or on my talk page (thanks for the note on 86's talk page about that, Gary). Curse of Fenric (talk) 00:19, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Edit request
edit | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Even though I consider the use of the WWE Performance Centre as Buddy's training not controversial per WP:BLP, I propose nevertheless that the article be edited to add the following third party independent source alongside WWE Performance Center in the info box at the top of the page;
This should prove it beyond doubt, and thereby hopefully put a final halt to the edit war that caused the protection that was applied to begin with. Curse of Fenric (talk) 10:19, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Administrator note: Is everyone okay with this addition? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
- If it's added alongside the other reliably sourced information (PCW Academy). GaryColemanFan (talk) 15:07, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not okay with it, it proves that he spent time training at the Performance Center (which was never in question) but does not address any of the other issues which are currently being debated as per the BLP discussion. 94.174.101.121 (talk) 22:06, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
- As per GaryColemanFan, fine if it's added alongside the sourced PCW Academy edit (or at least the Carlo Cannon edit he suggested at BLP). 194.28.127.52 (talk) 04:04, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
- The PCW link is not permitted under WP:BLP as it is a promotional link and therefore not reliable. A third party source independent of the promotion and the wrestler is required. BLP prohibits controversial claims. There is nothing controversial about the WWE claim and the link is independent and reliable. It is the only proven training location for him under BLP. Curse of Fenric (talk) 05:03, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
- There is no consensus here. I have removed mention from the infobox for now and added a disputed tag in the body of the article. Hopefully some other editors will weigh in. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:20, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
- @MSGJ: Martin, with all due respect this isn't a consensus issue. The other editors are demanding the addition of a claim and source that both fail WP:BLP. An experienced editor, Darkwind, has stated on the BLP Noticeboard regarding this issue that;
- "What should lend more weight is the fact that I have been a Wikipedian for over 12 years, and I can guarantee you that neither the PCW nor the MCW websites are reliable sources. Exactly as Curse of Fenric said above, these websites are "promotional material designed to attract wrestlers ... They are suspect[,] as is every other website ... seeking attention and the money of youngsters wanting to be a professional wrestler." You said yourself, 94.174.101.121, that you agree that the information contained on PCW/MCW websites is not verifiable, which means it fails WP:V, not to mention BLP and RS. Editors do not need proof that a source is wrong to call it unreliable."
- To try and get around these clear requirements in the form of a trade off to agree to the edit I proposed that does not suffer from this problem is disruptive and can not be supported. For this reason I believe there is no reason not to approve my edit. No one has shown how my edit is against BLP in any way. The source is third party, independent and a news site and therefore reliable. Curse of Fenric (talk) 10:23, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
- The infobox section is for where a wrestler learned the trade, either before or during the start of his or her career. To say that someone "trained" somewhere 6 years after their career began is absurd--clearly the training, as intended in the infobox, took place before he joined NXT. GaryColemanFan (talk) 14:58, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
- So? As long as who trained him during that period can't be verified properly consistent with BLP, it can't be added. Pure and simple. My source for the Performance Centre fulfills that criteria - independent, verifiable and not contentious or controversial. The PCW and MCW websites fail that test. I suggest you find one that passes it. Curse of Fenric (talk) 01:38, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
- Just wondering why Curse of Fenric hasn't been putting WWE Performance Centre on other NXT devolpmental wrestlers, such as Blake?
- And for the record, I have reported him for (again) breaking WP:3RR.194.28.124.52 (talk) 22:13, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
- So? As long as who trained him during that period can't be verified properly consistent with BLP, it can't be added. Pure and simple. My source for the Performance Centre fulfills that criteria - independent, verifiable and not contentious or controversial. The PCW and MCW websites fail that test. I suggest you find one that passes it. Curse of Fenric (talk) 01:38, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
- The infobox section is for where a wrestler learned the trade, either before or during the start of his or her career. To say that someone "trained" somewhere 6 years after their career began is absurd--clearly the training, as intended in the infobox, took place before he joined NXT. GaryColemanFan (talk) 14:58, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Debut with PCW
editWith all of that unpleasantness aside, I'm confused as to why the "disputed" tag would be placed after the stated that he debuted with PCW. The reason given was that Carlo Cannon did not work for PCW. This does not seem relevant to the statement that Murphy worked for PCW, so I have removed it. (He stated in an interview that he debuted for PCW and trained in their academy, then later trained under Cannon, so the statements are not contradictory.) I am not trying to start an edit war, but I thought it would be best if I explained my reason for removing the tag. GaryColemanFan (talk) 06:01, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
The disputed word is "debut" not worked for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.160.17.168 (talk) 06:59, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
- That IP is wrong. I've updated the early history and while I can't confirm his debut I can confirm his first recorded match and I have re-written that accordingly. Also for the above IP, if you look at the source for Murphy's first recorded match....oh dear look who's there. Carlo Cannon. *coughs loudly* Mister Q101 (talk) 10:26, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
- "Marek: Talk abit about your journey on the Australian wrestling scene from when you first started?
- MSilva: Well... I started back in 2008, I broke into the "scene" with Jacko Lantern who is a good friend of mine. We were those bunch of kids that loved wrestling so much we would all get together and watch wrestling then wrestling around the house. We first went to PCW in which we started training on the Wednesday and was booked on the show Saturday. haha, but my wrestling career did'nt start until I started training with Carlo Cannon - He tought me pretty much how to put a match together and over the years I just modified what he taught me." GaryColemanFan (talk) 15:23, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
- Interesting commentary when the match I posted was in 2007. I understand though from the PCW website (I am talking about now but there's no reason to believe that it wasn't happening back then) that they have two tiers of shows and it may well be that the show they were booked on instantly was PCW Slam. The 2007 match I posted does not appear to be a PCW Slam show but rather their main show, so I would suggest that instant booking was even earlier and the true debut. It wouldn't be unusual for a person to forget dates. Nice to read about a promotion doing a developmental thing that it seems WWE copied with NXT. Or maybe not..... Mister Q101 (talk) 21:40, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
- MSilva: Well... I started back in 2008, I broke into the "scene" with Jacko Lantern who is a good friend of mine. We were those bunch of kids that loved wrestling so much we would all get together and watch wrestling then wrestling around the house. We first went to PCW in which we started training on the Wednesday and was booked on the show Saturday. haha, but my wrestling career did'nt start until I started training with Carlo Cannon - He tought me pretty much how to put a match together and over the years I just modified what he taught me." GaryColemanFan (talk) 15:23, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
Wrong news
editAlexa bliss and buddy murphy are still together, hir sister confirm it.... Avvv01 (talk) 20:34, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
- You need a source to prove that. Addicted4517 (talk) 03:49, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Training (again)
editThis was marked as an unreliable source, so I am linking the discussion from the Reliable Sources Noticeboard to show that this is a suitable source to verify this specific claim. The discussion took place here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_192#Sorting_out_sources_for_Buddy_Murphy's_training GaryColemanFan (talk) 21:46, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
- @GaryColemanFan: An interesting read. It, combined with what is above, seem to show several different claims. For convenience I'll ignore the fact that Curse of Fenric has been indefinitely blocked (MisterQ101 counts as an identified sock of his) because he made some valid points. Here is my reflection;
- A key factor here that Curse of Fenric mentioned is the fact that podcasts have no reliability guidelines at all. They aren't mentioned on the reliable source page as stated, but notably nor are they included in the sources page in the WP Pro Wrestling Project or the Biographies of Living Persons. WP:PODCAST goes to a project about articles for podcasts. Now on that basis alone it allows for your link, even though Curse of Fenric also noted that's not a good idea in general (opening Pandora's Box as he put it) which is a valid point. However it's not a reason to exclude it out of hand as he did - certainly for the reason he gave with the kayfabe claim (rightly rebuked as original research). But we need guidelines for it I think.
- A second valid point that Curse of Fenric made was about "industry professionals". But as you noted in effect, GaryColemanFan, his interpretation of such was inconsistent because his references to the hosts of the podcast concerned were indeed such people - involved in professional wrestling. Not fans. I would note that one of them has since passed away (Armour in 2019). The real question should be - are they a reliable source? The people I mean, not the podcast itself. I would not be inclined for example to pay any heed to a podcast run by Marc Middleton (see the wrestling project source page). Where do they sit in that regard? That query - which is the basis oF my adding the tag I did - is the point that remains unanswered.
- Another valid point just above on this page by Curse of Fenric as his sock MisterQ101 was the one made about the difference between Buddy's debut dates. Now admittedly I don't know if a date was given on the podcast concerned or not - but there is another factor that has arisen since. That being Buddy's comments to Corey Graves on his After The Bell podcast noting that he was backyard wrestling; likely before the noted professional debut in 2007. Buddy also talks about a promotion but doesn't name them, nor does he name Cannon - but being a WWE approved podcast I'm not reading anything into that as he likely avoided names intentionally. I suspect the promotion he was talking about was PCW.
- Another concern that no one raised although this might be incorrect - Carlo Cannon's own debut date. Now if he was training wrestlers one would expect him to have considerable experience. And yet Cage Match (the only source I could find on a skim) puts his own debut as 2005. I'll leave that there for one to draw one's own conclusions on this. A better source for this would be a good idea although I couldn't find one.
- Please don't take all of this as a reason to revert, restore or anything else for now. That's why I haven't reverted your tag removal, and won't either. Reliability of podcasts - which in my view should run along the same lines as newspapers as they serve similar purposes at times (either news items or news editorials as the case may be) - are subject to a number of factors. Selective editing would be one. They can also include kayfabe remarks that aren't real as Curse of Fenric said, but such a thing would need to be proven as such and all he was doing was speculating as we know (to obviously try and shut the podcast down as a source - and he was in the wrong doing that). It is the case also for the selective editing of course, and any other factor. After all, there is a reason why we have a list on unreliable written sources for professional wrestling, and selective editing (eg taking quotes out of context) would be a part of that. Sources are noted there for the likes of Marc Middleton and others.
- With all this in mind I do think discussion about some guidelines I mooted in point 1 should be a priority going forward. In the COVID world podcasts could be a way of the future in the mainstream so the sooner we sort that the better. But for now I agree with your tag edit as it stands for the reasons you have pointed to as noted. If there is a change it has to come from my suggested guideline discussion and nowhere else. You did however also revert the access date which I did put back per the edit summary. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:37, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress
editThere is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Matt Silva (soccer) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:35, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
- The discussion is already closed and the result is not to moved. Anonymy365248 (talk) 13:03, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Requested move 11 June 2022
edit- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. Evidence was found of sources switching to his new name after the change. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 01:50, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Buddy Murphy → Buddy Matthews – Per WP:NAMECHANGES. Majority of the sources call him Buddy Matthews. Works regularly with AEW, appearing in PPVs and Dynamite (a show with 1 million viewers every week). --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 16:20, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose: Still better known by his WWE name. Won three titles while there (including the one in NXT) and has only been with AEW a few months. I believe WP:TOOSOON applies here. This can be revisited at a later date but for now this should stay as is. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:42, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support as per nom. 162 etc. (talk) 17:04, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support as WP:NAMECHANGES say that sources used after the name change are given extra weight. His new name is used here and here. cookie monster 755 02:49, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Expand Buddy Matthews' Article from Blake and Murphy
editI suggest we expand this article by merging the majority of the information from the article about Blake and Murphy. Anonymy365248 (talk) 14:17, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree. That is effectively duplicating content, given that I very much doubt the article in question is subject to any threat of AfD. Addicted4517 (talk) 03:18, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have any intentions on duplicating content. What I'm doing is section move. Anonymy365248 (talk) 13:30, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Information about the team should stay on the article about the team. Addicted4517 (talk) 23:05, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have any intentions on duplicating content. What I'm doing is section move. Anonymy365248 (talk) 13:30, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Same as Addicted. I don't see any reason to duplicate information. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:23, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not duplicating information, I'm transferring them to this article. Anonymy365248 (talk) 13:25, 21 June 2024 (UTC)